INTERVIEWER JUERGEN ELSAESSER FOR THE LEFT WING GERMAN DAILY NEWSPAPER JUNGE WELT QUESTIONS ANTON DUHACEK OF THE YUGOSLAV SECRET SERVICE

Translation by Edward Spalton 13th November 2003

INTRODUCTION (Rodney Atkinson). From the early 1980s under the leadership of Klaus Kinkel (the future German Foreign Minister) the German Secret Service (BND) had been infiltrating agents into Yugoslavia seeking the break up that country and in particular the re-establishment of its fascist war time ally Croatia. In Erich Schmidt Eenboom's book on Kinkel and my own book Fascist Europe Rising the evidence has long been compelling. But this interview with an operative in the Yugoslav Secret Service at the time, while confirming what others have already written, provides further damning and conclusive evidence.

No other crisis in post second world war Europe has so conclusively proved the return (through the European Union) to the fascist and German imperialist 1940s than the destruction of Yugoslavia and the re-establishment of precisely those petty statelets which were then allies of Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany. They were among the worst perpetrators of war crimes and even provided escape routes for Nazis fleeing Europe in 1945. The activities then and now of the Vatican's "Jewel in the Crown", Croatia, shows how the old adage that "when Germany and the Vatican have interests in common the whole of Europe should be wary" has not lost its historical significance. At a rally of Croatian nationalists in Zagreb May 1992 Franjo Tudjman declared "If we had not wanted it, there would have been no war" (Source: Berliner Zeitung 13 December 1999).

Particularly damning in this interview is the revelation that the German Secret Service when it took over demanded the expulsion from the Croatian Secret Service of any Croatian "partisans" who had fought the Nazis during the war. Behind the smiles of the rapacious German political class as it re-establishes German hegemony in Europe lies the obnoxious reality of its own ruthless secret services. But since the dangerously ignorant British political class and their "Little Englander" mentality do not even know what is happening in superficial continental politics they know nothing at all of the hidden reality!

Question: Milosevic is in the dock at the Hague but actually are Helmut Kohl and Hans-Dietrich Genscher, then respectively Chancellor and Foreign Minister of the German Federal Republic most guilty of the destruction of Yugoslavia?

Duhacek: Germany had been trying to do that for a long time. It went into its decisive phase towards the end of the Eighties. The Bonn government was supported in this by Austria, Italy and the Vatican. The German Secret Service (BND - Bundesnachrichtendienst) coordinated the support for the republics of Croatia and Slovenia which wished to secede from Yugoslavia.

Q. What factual, firm information have you about this?

D. At the end of the Eighties the BND took over the direct operational command of the Croatian foreign intelligence service. De jure it was still part of the all-Yugoslavia service UDBA but de facto it had been practically outside Belgrade's control since the early Seventies. In February 1990 in the run-up to the election in Croatia, still then part of Jugoslavia, there was a personal meeting between the German Foreign Minister and the Croatian Chief of Secret Service, Josip Manolic. At this meeting Genscher promised 800 million marks. Manolic wanted to take the money straight away. Franjo Tudjman (later President) and his then comrade in arms, Stipe Mesic (President today) were in urgent need of the money. Finally the money flowed after the elections of March 1990. People from the BND handed over the 800 million marks in Zagreb - in cash.

Q. That must have been rather a heavy suitcase.

D. The Germans obtained a service in return. In February 1990 Manolic had concluded a far-reaching secret agreement with the BND. Essentially it contained three points. First: Cooperation between the BND and the Croatian service controlled by him in the action against Yugoslavia and Serbia. Secondly: The BND placed at the disposal of its Croatian partners all the intelligence reports which it and its allied NATO services had collected in and concerning Yugoslavia; for example - the situation in the Yugoslavian army, its troop movements and so on. That would be an enormous advantage for Zagreb in the military conflicts which were soon to start. Thirdly: Manolic placed a part of his informants and informal colleagues, for example in Belgrade, directly under BND control.

Q In his book "Der Schattenkrieger" (Shadow Warrior) Erich Schmidt-Eenboom draws a veil over the BND activities of Klaus Kinkel at many points. He asserts however that already " immediately before the death of Tito" in Zagreb "All decisions on strategic matters were only agreed in coordination ...with BND authorities and Ustashe representatives" (NB The continuation of the Croatian War Time Ustashe - the Nazi Allies that ran Yugoslavia -ed). That was at the beginning of the Eighties.

They were close contacts but they had to be developed under cover. The hot phase first began at the end of the Eighties, as the organisation which Manolic and his Godfather, Ivan Krajacic (NB in the 1940s he defended the Nazi Kurt Waldheim who had been indicted as a war criminal by the Yugoslav Government. Later research showed that Waldheim's record was at best ambiguous - ed) after he, had built up in secret became the official Secret Service of the new Croatian state. From around May 1990 this service functioned as a dependency of the BND. The German side demanded the total subordination of the Croatian service in return for its assistance - and they got it too.

For instance in 1993/4 the BND demanded a total cleansing of the Croatian service. All who came from the Partisan tradition had to go (i.e. the anti-Nazi Yugoslavs during the second world war -ed). You have to understand that the whole Tudjman Project of the new Croatian State and all its institutions was first and foremost a compromise. Croatian nationalism and enmity towards Yugoslavia were the common denominators. On this platform forces met which had been enemies during the Second World War, namely national Communists (Tito was a Croatian communist - ed) and Ustashe Fascists. Now the BND demanded that the first should be cleared out. Thus Joseph Manolic was rendered powerless within the secret service structures and Stipe Mesic, who left with him and a few others, frustrated the Tudjman Party (HDZ) and founded one of their own.

Q Are you sure the BND demanded that?

D. Tudjman himself admitted as much. In 1994 he wrote this about his break with Manolic "As things came to such a situation with Mr. Manolic, I have to add this. In 1992, after we had been formally recognised but had no real friends, representatives of one of the leading world powers came to me and said "Mr. President , you are apparently aware that you need to build up a new defence and security structure. We are ready to help you but, please, not with Joza Manolic".

Q. But what could the BND have against Manolic? He was the one who had first made the Croatian service available to the Germans in 1990.

D. The BND mistrusted those who came from the Partisan tradition. After all, they had fought the Germans for four years. They appeared unsafe to them, at any rate in the long run. Just remember this about Manolic. He was awarded the Partisan decoration "Fighter from the First Day".

Q But the quotation from Tudjman is not clear about this. Who had demanded the replacement of Manolic? He says only "representatives of one of the Great Powers of the world". Could that not have been the Americans?

D. No. The Americans had no sort of influence. The Germans were absolutely dominant. When the American military advisors directed the conquest of the Krajina (and expulsion of its population) in 1995, they did so at the wish of the Germans. Kohl and Genscher did not want to get their hands dirty. A German military operation then would have been unpopular with domestic opinion. But the Germans supplied the weapons, above all army surplus from the former socialist countries - Poland, Czechoslovakia and the German Democratic Republic.

Q. In the meantime the Tudjman Party HDZ has been voted out. In 2002 Mesic was elected President. Have the Germans therefore lost their influence? After everything you have described, Mesic must feel rather bitter against the BND.

D. People have accommodated themselves. Mesic can do nothing without the Germans and the Germans can do nothing without Mesic, at any rate for the time being. Tudjman is dead, his right hand man Gojko Susak, the first Defence Minister is dead. That Mesic is now trying to recall some of the 300,000 expelled Serbs to Croatia is significant for Germany as his main economic partner. Since ethnic cleansing by Croatian nationalists, districts like the Krajina and Slavonia remain depopulated. A third of the country is lying waste.

Q. With your knowledge would you be an important witness in the Milosevic case at The Hague?

D. I would go if I were invited although I have already received death threats on account of this.